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*** The 2010 Ollies Post Mortem ***


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#1 Killian

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 08:57 PM

Ok; the excitement has ebbed away, the winners are sleeping peacefully, clutching their awards and the Police have moved Roger and Monk on from behind the bins (again)...

It's time to get your feedback on this year's awards, so we can make next year's BETTER!

One frequent comment that has surfaced is the sheer number of categories involved... and I don't blame you! 47 separate categories is a shed-load in anyone's book but, as ever, we're evolving and changing, tweaking and fixing as we go forward.

From an "organisers" viewpoint, we wanted to make sure that we had a genre winner for each category, modders, musicians, actors, writers and directors got the opportunity to be recognised...but, hey! These are, after all, community awards, so if you can suggest alternatives for categories, or fair ways for two or more categories to be combined, then by all means let's have 'em!

Too many categories? Not a problem! Which ones do you think we should have? Are there any we missed that people think really should be part of the recognition? Any we don't really need? Why do you think that is?

Didn't like the nominations phase? Why not? Can you think of another way we can get everyone to have a voice in the selection of the short-list? If so, let's hear it!

Didn't like the voting phase? Why not? Can you think of another way everyone can vote on the short-list? Don't keep it to yourself!

We'd like YOUR constructive comments and feedback on the systems we've used, the categories we had and suggestions to make things bigger and better next year.

And we'd like reasoned suggestions, please! Bear in mind that all the organisers cobbled together the last two shows pretty much "as is"; we all have day jobs and had to work on the organisation in between everything else we do, so by all means make comments, but please don't just say "don't have so many categories" for example; that's expecting us to do all the donkey work figuring out a way of doing it and making it fair, which isn't particularly useful! Saying "instead of having a separate category for X, why not combine X, Y and Z because..." is much more useful to everyone!

#2 stvndysn

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:32 PM

i would say

add more modding categories, also split the ollies over 2 days certain cats on chris,s technical awards on dcmf and the biggies on knr

#3 Killian

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:44 PM

i would say

add more modding categories, also split the ollies over 2 days certain cats on chris,s technical awards on dcmf and the biggies on knr


What kind of modding categories? Give us some examples! And bear in mind a lot of the "movie going public" aren't that technical, so going too much into the esoteric lands of modding science might not be a good thing.

The "splitting it over two days" we tried this year and think it worked ok, but the general commentary we've received is that people would like to see less categories, not more; more only leads to less people wanting to nominate, which isn't a good thing. If we're going to have more categories, how will that work?

Just playing "devil's advocate" here, by the way :)

#4 stvndysn

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 10:24 PM

these are the categories i would like to see, modding categories on a modding show tho dont you think.

BEST PROP DESIGN
BEST SET DESIGN
BEST COSTUME DESIGN
BEST SPECIAL EFFECTS
BEST SOUND DESIGN
BEST OVERALL MOD

#5 TehPoptartKid

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 11:36 PM

This might be overlooked, but I would like it if the movies nominated can be from three years back, and not just a year. All of my moves wern't qualified for both Ollie events because of what year and certain type of month it could be nominated. Like instead of 2008-2009, it would be 2008 to 2011.

I hope that makes sense?

And I'd like to add a category for the flash animation experts. Flash Toons. And, Best Fairytale: That could be like Best Horror Fairytale, or Best Comedic Fairytale.

And this might be hard to do, but you know how they have elimination rounds in competitions, and have a ranking chart that they show? Well, with five of your best movies at your disposal, you could go head to head, and post your best movie to compete with that other member. Then, the judges would agree who's the best movie, and then the winner would go higher in rank while the guy or girl who didn't win would either be paired with another guy or girl who didn't win until they get bumped off the chart. That would be sort of more entertaining, and interesting than just voting like a ballot box type deal.

Just my two cents.



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#6 thebiz

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 01:17 AM

I appreciate the work and the good intentions that go into this award. My comments are not meant to discourage, upset or diminish the work that is accomplished with this event. Its just that I have many thoughts and different ways I would handle it. The thinking here is that we are a smaller community than we project. And the forum users who would nominate and vote for the movies are all movie makers or modders. Therefore the focus might be more on movie making and less on movie watching as well as simplifying/shortening the process into something more focused. The following was written a few weeks ago but I havent posted/sent it in deferment to the process. Thanks for allowing a chance to air out our thoughts on the process and event.


I made several attempts to fill out a nomination form and to vote for the ollies but failed multiple times for a couple of reasons.

The nomination and voting process is difficult and not fun. The main reason is there are too many categories to fill in and this lead to me feeling like I was simply trying to find a movie to fit the category instead of looking for award worthy movies. This to me is a big deterent.

Alternately, my issue with the voting process is the requirement to fill out every category which will no doubt lead to many selections from voters who havent watched the movie.

After some thought, these would be my categories:

1. Best Picture - Plain and simple. No need for short form and long form. Simply the best. With the oscars, a short form film category was added because short films could not compete with feature length films (given release restrictions and the amount of people who viewed them). That is not the case here. A five minute movie is on level playing ground with a 60 minute movie.

2. Best Screenplay
3. Best Sound Editing (to include sound and music in any way that adds to the movie)
4. Best Special (Visual) Effects
5. Best Visual Design - This one is called machinimatography in your categories which is a term that is a bit confusing.
6. Best Performance - Male
7. Best Performance - Female

Is there a need for supporting performances? In my opinion, no. Often the simplicity of a short film script written by amatuers does not develop enough good supporting characters to warrant this category. Also, many of the voters might be hard pressed to think beyond just the best performace (I am). Pick the most memorable performance (be it a lead or otherwise) and move on.

8. Best Member Composed Song or Score from a film

I would remove the awards not based on a specific film. Joseph K is a great director and putting him in a category where Im supposed to rank him among ChatNoir and Mac, without specifying a film, becomes too much a popularity vote (in that it is not tied to a specific product that can be compared to another product). The same goes for Best ScreenWriter and Best Director. Tie it to a movie.

Category based awards do not much sense to me and the huge amount of categories is the main problem with the nomination process. Too many categories. Fitting films into categories based upon their content is difficult and not always accurate and it also asks the voter to decide if (for example) Incubus is the best romance film (I feel it is not), or the best film in the romance category (I feel it is). Then you look at a category like westerns. Merciless Sun was created in 2007. Again its an example of nominators streching to fit a movie to the category.

I also dislike the genre categories because it forces me to find films to fit the genre. How many Romance films can I think of off the top of my head that might be worthy of an award....its hard to do.

If the categories had to remain you might consider shortening the categories to the big 4 (drama, comedy, action, horror) but I would advise against this as the door would remain open for other category based awards and piss off directors who feel they got short shafted by a missing category.

Engine Based Awards make more sense to me here as most viewers are familiar with at least the major engines used on this site and it encompasses all the different type of movies we see here in a few different categories. Obviously the engine categories can change based upon whatever is being used at the time.

9. Best TM Film
10. Best Iclone Film
11. Best MS Film
12. Best MovieZU Film (seems to be building steam and may be enough worthy entrees for next year)
13. Best Video Game Engine Film
14. Best Mash Up (combination) Film - (I dont like the term anymation used here to symbolize 2 engines at once. My understanding of the term instead means a willingness to use whatever works but not a necessity to use multiple techniques at once.)
15. Best Live Action Film

16. Best Trailer/Teaser/Promotional Film

17. MOST OUTSTANDING MODDER FOR A MACHINIMA ENGINE - A good description added to this category. Best prop makes no sense across all the platforms but this category is very good.

Best Newcomer, Helpfull Member, Entertaining Guest and Outstanding Contribution awards are all popularity votes. Im not a fan but Im sure some people are. Yes, its nice to toss a bone to interesting, helpful contributors of TMU but it feels too self congratulatory to me as we are still a very small community.

This would roughly cut the number of categories in half (IMO) leading to a more focused process and the opportunity for a more focused awards ceremony.

I dont like seperating the modding and technical awards from the movie awards. It diminishes the technical awards in my mind (though I am sure this wasnt your intention). Again we (forum members) are a technical group and we shouldnt seperate that from the movie making process.

Further I would change the nomination process. I would take the top 15 viewers on tmu and ask them if they would like to be involved in the nomination process. Keep going down that list till you get a panel of 10 (or more) nominators. Nominators should be able to list up to 5 films for each category that they feel would represent the awards well but they should not be required to fill out every category. If you cant get 3 different responses from 10 people for a category then it probably shouldnt be a category. I would stress that the selections should be award worthy and if they cant come up with a selection to leave it blank. I get the whole community voice thing but asking the community as a whole to first nominate and tne vote is both difficult and anticlimactic in my opinion.

Each nominator could possibly get a spreadsheet that contains all the eligible films from the period with #comments, #views, url, tags, categories and other info in seperate fields so they can order the movies in an easy manner (I would bet money Ken could get this with ease). Currently the TMU search ability is no good at doing this type of thing in that the results of your search are in a bizarre little dropdown box that cant be used for searching large amounts of movies and cant be ordered in an alternate fashion.

I think you should be able to vote for yourself (politicians are not told they have to vote for their competitors) and I dont see a problem with canvassing for votes as if someone comes across as irritating they hopefully will be ignored while an interesting/unique/fun promo campaign would make the whole process better and more interesting. The "For your Consideration" idea didnt work very well in my opinion. It was boring (why the need to stick to formats?) not very inspiring. Im not saying anyone will do something interesting but the opportunity should be there. Perhaps people make their own highlight reels. I do not feel that the nominators should be able to nominate themselves.

I apologize if my amount of critisism comes off as ingrateful or assholish. That is not my intention. The whole process and event has simply caused me to pause and consider how I would have done a similar event. And these are my thoughts. Hope parts of this might be in some way helpful. Heres hoping for a successful event next year.

Edited by thebiz, 01 November 2010 - 01:53 AM.

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#7 Harb40

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 01:53 AM

I like some of what I read and disagree with other parts.

Yes, the nomination phase could be revamped to allow empty slots. As biz said, forcing a vote can lead to erroneous entries just to fill a slot.

Until there is enough films made with newer or underused engines (Muvizu, Sims, Second Life, Toon, Kloseup, etc.), I don't feel they need a seperate catagory for each but they could go into a category that encompasses all of them such as an 'Other Machinima' type category.

I do like the genre breakdowns and supporting actor/actress bits. One thing I don't like is 'Best Picture' if it wasn't nominated or won in it's own engine category. Shouldn't best picture be a choice of the winners of the different engine awards competing against each other?

The 2 day, multiple show is a good idea but not everyone can attend both shows so..............

On a different note, this year seemed rushed. Maybe it was the host not being medicated or maybe the time wasn't being tracked properly. Also, presenting 4, 5 or even 8 awards then having the people come in to make speeches might have been part of the problem. Seemed as if having the winner get on right away would make it seem to last longer. I do understand if someone wins multiple awards it can get tedious but look at any other awards show (Peoples Choice, AMA, CMT, CMA, BET, Oscars, etc.) and you will see performers/actors giving multiple speeches.

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#8 macwemyss

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:21 AM

Wow... well although I agree with some of what you say Biz, bits of it seem ruthless and if we were to go down that route I think it would possibly become even more of a popularity contest by generalising all the categories.

I also disagree that short form films are on the same playing field as long form... one thing I would say is the time limit should be changed from 15 mins to 10 mins, since then there as a better distinction between those two categories. I mean, I wouldn't personally class 15 mins as a short film on this site, but 10 mins and below I would.

I wouldn't combine them though, because personally even if a 3 minute film was the best made film of the year, I would always be more inclined to vote for a longer film because it allows for better story development and frankly it generally involves more effort.

I also disagree with having the modding awards on the modding show because it would seem strange to me to have modders announcing awards that had a fairly good chance of going to themselves. Better to keep it on the Weekly Look and then have the discussion on the modding show in my opinion.

I think there are one or two categories that could be chopped - I agree about the supporting acting awards, because I've seen two years in a row now that the distinction between leading and supporting roles is easily blurred and it would work better if we combined them into one. It saves people searching around for specific performances as it isn't easy with short films to define what counts as leading and supporting roles.

I kinda agree about the awards not tied to a specific film as well, because I got the feeling with the nominees, etc that people were thinking more about reputations gained over several years rather than what they had actually achieved since the last Ollies. Put bluntly, it did seem like a bit of a popularity contest. There were people who weren't even nominated who I felt deserved to be, and there was a sense of predictability in the nominees and winners in those categories.

I'm caught in two minds with the categories, because as Biz says, it would be a case of "all or nothing". I'm drifting more towards keeping them though because by removing them completely I think a lot of the excitement and opportunity would be removed from the awards. I just think it would seem less special. The ceremony would be over so much quicker and a lot of deserving people wouldn't be recognised. I mean, that's the main problem with the Oscars, is that there is no comedy award, yet comedy films and actors stand no chance in the big awards like best picture and best actor. It takes away a lot of people's opportunities to be noticed even if they deserve it.

I think the nomination phase should be edited to allow empty votes as it would encourage more voters, making it a fairer contest. If you don't get enough nominations to fill the category, scrap it. After all, people clearly don't care enough about it, it's their own fault that it doesn't feature.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the suggestion of nominations only being conducted by a select panel of judges. After all, this is a community event and that would take away everything TMU stands for. We don't want the "elite" of TMU to pick the best films for us, I'm sure I'm not alone in saying people would rather do it for themselves. I mean, say every one of the judges liked one film and nominated it, that doesn't mean to say that everyone else on the site likes it. In fact, they may hate it. It all comes down to personal taste so it's much fairer to let everyone nominate.

I didn't mind the multiple awards then interview format, but I dunno, something just seemed more polished about the first Ollies award ceremony. Maybe that's just nostalgia talking but it just seemed to flow better. That's not a big thing though, both formats work fine :)

I think perhaps K4 has a little TOO much work on the night, and I'd like to suggest maybe having multiple hosts over the night, either to give K4 a (toilet) break every now and then or even just to bounce his thoughts off because he seemed to be growing steadily more desperate for things to say over the course of the night lol. It's not easy to go for three hours when you're essentially talking to yourself. If you look at other award ceremonies they tend to have some sort of double act going on or they switch with other hostsover the course of the night. Very rarely is one person asked to handle the entire event alone.

I also would like to suggest that there is an opportunity for other community members to help (provided they aren't involved with any awards they are nominated for) because I felt that this year Killian, K4 and Tom were given an awful lot to do themselves (and Dulci for her work behind the scenes) and I don't think people realise how much work it was to put together an event like this. People seemed quick to criticise at times and I feel if there was an opportunity for those same people to help out next year then they could have no excuse for complaints. It's one thing to criticise the Ollies and another thing to do something about it.

I think a category should be created for movies made using The Sims because there are more Sims movies on TMU than people know and I feel they deserve recognition for their work. I anticipate there may be a need for a Second Life category too. I agree that Anymation is misleading and would change it back to Mash-Up.

I think the award for Best Musical is very misleading. I would be inclined to change it to something more like Best Music-based film, or even Best Music Video, as I think there were only about two actual Musicals released since the last Ollies, and only one made it into the nominees.

Personally Steven, I don't see Sound Design and Special Effects as modding awards and would question them being classed as such. I also think a "Best Overall Mod" award would be kinda redundant if we were to take your suggestions, given that you already split them into categories. One or the other I reckon, not both. Also, going with Biz's earlier comment, the overall Best Modder award should probably be scrapped as it's probably a bit of a popularity contest. The truth is, only one or two names instantly spring to mind when you say "modder", and those doing the truly great work may be overlooked.

I disagree that nominees should be allowed to vote for themselves. It's unfair and takes away from the whole spirit of the event, which is honouring fellow community members. Giving someone the opportunity to vote for themselves may mean the crucial difference between one person winning and award and another. We want people to win awards because their peers feel that they deserve them, not because they want them and essentially cheat to try and get them.

I think highlight reels are a FANTASTIC idea and, if placed in the "For your Consideration" forum, would make the nomination process far more interesting for all involved. It also encourages potential nominees to make a real effort to be noticed, all in the spirit of healthy competition. I cannot recommend this idea enough, I think it would really make such a huge difference. It would work for modders too, as they could post pictures of all they have done over the year, or video examples of their mods being used in movies. Voice actors could provide audio or visual demo reels. Posters could be posted as well. I just think it would bring everyone together to compete more, which can only be a good thing.

Sorry for waffling on so much, I just wanted to get all my ideas out there at once. Hopefully you find some of them useful :)
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#9 Mefune Akira

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:44 AM

I think you guys did a superb job and I commend you all on your hard work.

Some ideas I'd like to add:

1. Form a committee to chose the nominations.

As a community member, I don't enjoy the responsibility of trying to think of all the movies Ive seen over the past year for the nomination process. So many could be (and have been) missed. From the nomination turn out this year, I assume others feel the same. To have a devoted volunteer group who are eager to go through all the movies released, should be the way to go, like the Oscars. Im sure many (veterans, newbies and in-between) would be happy to volunteer to help out. So you have community members involved in the nomination AND the final voting process. Win-win.

2. More friendly and appealing Ollies threads


I felt the threads for the Ollies were a bit aggressive and unfriendly. I think the big bold letters and certain language used implied the majority of participants would be dummies. Most of this was directed at the nomination process, which could be avoided with the before mentioned idea. I think most are mature enough to follow the rules without extreme fonts and some fun decor may liven up the event.

That's my 2 cents.

Edited by Mefune Akira, 01 November 2010 - 05:57 AM.

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#10 fospherous

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:52 AM

Some interesting points guys. Some I agree with, some I don't. Mostly with the committee suggestion, this isn't really making the choices of the nominees a community effort and it seems to be going back to the methods of the TMOscars, which we don't really want to be going back to. The awards where meant to be appealing because everyone in the community decides who gets to be recognized, and if we were to segregate the choice to a few people, it just wouldn't seem fair.

Anyway, please continue on the discussion, we want to hear what you want included for future Ollies. And if you disagree with someone's suggestion, don't be afraid to say it, it's an open discussion. :)

#11 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:26 PM

well so far for my suggestions all get shot down by elitist moviemakers, makes you look like modders dont deserve f%*k all..

@thebiz... so what your saying is that modders only deserve 1 award category.. so lets take away some film categories like...

9. Best TM Film
10. Best Iclone Film
11. Best MS Film
12. Best MovieZU Film (seems to be building steam and may be enough worthy entrees for next year)
13. Best Video Game Engine Film
14. Best Mash Up (combination) Film - (I dont like the term anymation used here to symbolize 2 engines at once. My understanding of the term instead means a willingness to use whatever works but not a necessity to use multiple techniques at once.)
15. Best Live Action Film

are these categories necessary when you just have best movie category.

@mac yes they are technical awards, i know they arent specifically modding awards but they are technical awards and should be classed as such.

#12 macwemyss

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:52 PM

Actually Steven, I totally agree with what you just said (except the elitist moviemaker part lol).

Come to think about it, I don't really think we do need separate awards for each machinima engine. It would probably make sense to just have Best machinima/anymation and best live action awards, which would also take away the need for a best picture award. I mean, all the machinima engines are pretty much on a level playing field these days, definitely more so than long and short form film.

I agree with that suggestion. I'm sorry if I offended any modders out there as well, I didn't mean to come across as "elitist".
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#13 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:55 PM

the term elitist wasnt actually meant at any singel person mac...i put it there to stop people thinking like moviemakers and more community...ie we are all part of the community but modders do feel left out of the equation and thats WRONG

#14 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:28 PM

someone mentioned and i cant be bothered to check said sorta the following statement.

why should modders present the modders awards section when they could be awarding to themselves..

well guess what people who was hosting the awards... and who won most of them K4 so what makes us any different..

honestly theres 2 much elitistic comments against modders here... and personally as far as the awards next year if this isnt resolved i personally wont be apart of it. and i will do my hardest to make sure no other modders take part.

IN OTHER WORDS IF MODDERS DONT GET AN EQUAL FOOTING THEN WHY SHOULD WE CONTRIBUTE

#15 fospherous

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:02 PM

someone mentioned and i cant be bothered to check said sorta the following statement.

why should modders present the modders awards section when they could be awarding to themselves..

well guess what people who was hosting the awards... and who won most of them K4 so what makes us any different..

honestly theres 2 much elitistic comments against modders here... and personally as far as the awards next year if this isnt resolved i personally wont be apart of it. and i will do my hardest to make sure no other modders take part.


I can't find the specific statement that was supposedly said Stvn, but it's best if you were to find the exact statement, because you may (and don't take this the wrong way) have interpreted the original statement wrongly. You can't say 'sorta said', because as I said, it could be completely different to what was originally said.

I'm sure no one is trying to be elitist at all, it can be easy for posts to be misinterpreted. Please don't read the thread and think that whats being said is the be all, end all, of what is going to happen. Everyone is open to opinions, we can agree or disagree.

Anyway continue on folks.

#16 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:15 PM

no it wasnt in this thread tom.. it was said to me during a skype conf one night or was mentioned on KnR show at some point..

look all i want as a representative of all modders out there is, that modders should be getting more recognition, than say just one category...

i did kinda go off the rails in my last post and i appologise, but its just the way i feel, at the moment the ollies is all about moviemakers and not about the little people behind the scenes..

i know maybe dcmf should host our own awards and totally take it away from you guys.

#17 fospherous

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:20 PM

i know maybe dcmf should host our own awards and totally take it away from you guys.


Well Stvn, if you don't feel we are doing the modding awards justice. You can take them and do the DCMF awards if you wanted to. All we want to do is get everyone recognised and if you feel that modding is not being recognised enough, then that's how you feel and you can go forth and decide.

#18 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:28 PM

thats it though tom, thats not what i want i want modding to be part of the ollies...

#19 DL Watson

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:20 PM

My god, what is wrong with just saying. Thanks Stvn for your feedback. We appreciate what DCMF has done for the community and will take your suggestions in account for next time.

This argumentative, aggressiveness is exactly why the Ollies might have a bad taste in peoples mouths.
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#20 Killian

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:33 PM

Let's keep this civil please, folks; we don't want this to deteriorate into shouting matches.

The Ollies is a community event and we want to take the views of EVERYONE into consideration to try and formulate a way of providing the event for future years in a way that involves the community at it's core.

That said, please don't get confrontational about it; the Ollies is also supposed to be fun and enjoyable as well. But, without the support and feedback of the community the whole thing is designed to showcase, it's not going to grow and expand.

Comment and suggest, by all means, but please don't get "finger pointy" or arsey with each other.




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