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*** The 2010 Ollies Post Mortem ***


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#21 wackyal3000

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:57 PM

I had a generally positive experience. I did feel that there were perhaps too many categories for films and was a little overwhelmed but actaully I'd be perfectly happy with having even more categories if it helped to give credence to all members of the community (especially, but not just, modders without whom we would all be left in the lurch). One thing that would be nice is links to the things we're voting on in the final voting section. I understand that the form is probably limited but its sometimes a chore to try and vote on things when you're not sure exactly what it is. This is a paticualr problme for music, posters and of course modding where sometimes the voter is almost inclined to guess.
Just my two cents. Again good job and thank you for all you do!

#22 Killian

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:00 PM

There are some good ideas coming through here, all with their particular merits; anything (remotely!) sane that is at least considerable is welcome!

Once we have a fair set of ideas for the various stages from folk, I'll compile them into one post so people can see what ideas we've had come in.

#23 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:03 PM

wacky dude you actually brought up a good point cos there was some categories which i hadnt seen any movies from, they was left blank on my form..this to me seems like an unused vote. whereas if the forms had link ability you could put the movies/whatever in link format so the audience/voter could go and watch and make a proper constructive decision on what to vote for.

#24 macwemyss

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:41 PM

Well what I did was I went and took the time to search the movies if I hadn't seen them rather than just leaving it blank but I suppose it would be better for people if there was less effort involved...

I am planning on discussing an idea with Chris and Smokstir which may improve this aspect of the nomination process for next year. Also once the nominees are announced I would be more than willing to create a thread featuring links to all the nominated work, making it easier for voters to decide on winners for each of the categories. There should never be a situation where the voter just guesses a winner, it just ruins the whole point of even having a vote.

I still think a lot of the problems mentioned would be solved with Biz's idea for highlight reels, etc, plus it would be more fun and the community could be more involved in a creative way rather than just filling in forms.

On a side note I don't think we should be getting carried away saying how little attention modders get, because actually when you look through the awards that are available, a modder has just as many opportunities to win awards as any single voice actor/actress, musician, writer, poster designer, sound designer or special effects person, if not more. Check and see. I agree modders perhaps don't get all the attention they deserve but let's not get carried away here. Sure the directors get a lot of the limelight and perhaps it's not entirely fair but modders aren't the only ones left on the sidelines ;)
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#25 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:22 PM

ok i think i may have found a solution to make sure everyone sees every video nominated..

you can make something similar to a questionaire with pdf..look here

also so people can see the video straight away you can embed video into a pdf look here

you have all the info in 1 place and im sure with a good layout would make voting and submitting your vote easier.

#26 DL Watson

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:52 PM

Here's what I would suggest.

AN OFFICIAL OLLIES WEBPAGE

I don't mind all the categories, but I can see how it would be overwhelming. And I think its particularly overwhelming if your having to sift through the haystack to find the films for a particular category.

As a solution to this, I would suggest creating a Ollies web page which would be dedicated to all the qualifying films. Users can see the entire list, or see only the films in a particular category. This could be done using the RSS feed at TMU and getting a hold of Riley to do some minimal code work.

On the same page and or on another, site visitors can see highlight reels (suggested by the Biz) to further help visitors make their selection - especially if they only need to be reminded of the film.

On the same web page, you can have the submission form, which I also suggest some changes too.

Instead of having this over-loaded and overwhelming submission page, break it down into parts/pages. Page one will focus on just modding, page two will focus on the actors, etc etc. And at the end of each page, the user presses Next to continue on and finish the form.

NOMINATIONS YEAR ROUND

If people really don't like the nomination process, and or want to make it less overwhelming - because they would rather focus their attention to actually voting a winner - but want to keep the community involved without resulting to a committee, then you could alternatively make the nomination period last for the entire year.

On your Ollies web page, you would have a nomination form which would consist of a drop down list of the qualifying Ollie categories and then a entry box to link to the film. This way, if a film comes out that a user really enjoys and thinks its Ollie worthy, he can go to the Ollie web page and submit it. At the end of the year, you'd see how many people nominated the film compared to the other nominations.

Doing it this way might help boost the underdog films from new TMU members (rather just remembering the more popular filmmakers) and might also encourage the filmmakers to promote and interact a little more on the threads.

And if the concern is people wont remember to go to the webpage to nominate - it would take a few minutes to add a link in code to the video template page so people who are watching at TMU could just click "Nominate for an Ollie" and be directed to the website.

MORE COMMUNICATION

Another thing I'd like to see more of is the administration reaching out to talented folks to help create radio and video advertisements, and a facebook fan page. If you decided to make a web page, I'd even add a subscription to a newsletter.

Communication is key in events like this. While we are all used to forums, I think its dying breed of communication. People like integrated, real-time news updates. Whether it be a short email or a tweet saying 'here's whats new...' or a facebook update saying 'check this film out...is it Ollie worthy???'.

It seems their is this taboo about 'spamming' and well, telling filmmakers and users of tmu about tmu films releases, promotions, festivals, and events is not spamming. Its community communication and I believe if there was more effort in this, it could really help boost the Ollies and even TMU.

And because I don't expect Killian and Tom to handle this all on their own, it would be great if they reached out to users and gave them specific tasks to handle.

Like making and placing a small banner on the front page of TMunderground.

I suggested this for this years Ollies and it fell on def ears. The argument is that the TMU community is at the forums, not at the video site. Well, I personally disagree. If the forums is where the community is, then what is the point of the video site at all? People can easily just upload their film to vimeo or youtube and link at the forums.

No, the video site is our main home. The place where we watch, where give feedback and where we do the most help for others. The forums is where we hang out and discuss our projects with one another.

I don't think its fair to say that if your not apart of the forums, then its your own fault that you don't know about the Ollies.

SPECIAL FX VS. VISUAL FX

My next suggestion is to actually clarify and add a category that's kinda irked me the last two Ollies.

Best Special FX

In the world of cinema, there is Special FX and Visual FX. One would say they are the same right? They're not.

Special FX is effects that is caught on camera while shooting. Like fire, explosions, miniature work, fog, rain, etc etc.

Visual FX is motion graphics which are added in post production. Like enhancing explosions, adding lens flares, lasers, and sometimes even rain, explosions, dust elements, or even entire CG environments.

I think its unfair for even our small community to lump them together. If a person makes a film for example and creates this amazing sequences that has explosions, laser fire, (etc etc) but was created inside of iClone, Moviestorm, (etc etc) and utilizing modded content or content that already existed in that application should qualify for Best Special FX since it was captured inside of the application he/she used to make the film.

Where as a person who makes a film and creates an amazing sequence that has explosions, laser fire, but used FXhome or After Effects to Chroma Key, composit, and or mashed software's (etc etc) would qualify as Best VisualFX.

I think this would be helpful to keep the people who spend hours in visualfx to get some recognition for their talents while also keeping those who make modded content recognized for theirs as well.

WINNING SPEECHES

My final suggestion is for the actual presentation of the Ollies. I think this years presentation was weaker in comparison then the first years.

I think it was this way because to me, it felt way too rushed, hardly anyone was coming on to accept their awards, and too me that is the best part.

I understand that last year some folks were not ready to come on the air etc etc, but I really like the idea of a winner thanking those who nominated him/her.

Maybe as a solution to this, you contact the nominees and have them record a small thank you speech in case they do win. This way, it will be automated, they still have no idea they won until the presentation, and you wouldn't have to worry about Skype failing on you, or they not showing up at all.

I'd also keep all the awards during the actual presentation. When the technical awards were presented on a different radio show, it felt like they weren't even apart of the Ollies, and during the Ollies, the presenters even spent a few minutes re-iterating those winners. Those winners deserve the attention of the audiences coming to listen to the awards, So, I would just leave people in suspense until the actual event.

CLOSING STATEMENTS

I'd like to thank Killian for posting this thread and being open to feedback. I can imagine how difficult and time-consuming this process is and you are to be commended for all of your hard-work.

The Ollies really is helping legitimize this TMU as the best film-making community around. I think its great you got so many sponsors involved and I hope the next one is even better.

My suggestions above were only out of support and respect for this event, trying to make it better. My suggestions don't mean they could be wrong, or just plain counter-productive, but just my current perspective.

I wish you the very best and if there is anything I can do to help, please ask. My only alternative motive is to help progress the community, otherwise, I wouldn't even have responded.

Edited by DL Watson, 01 November 2010 - 09:05 PM.

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#27 Mefune Akira

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:23 PM

Some interesting points guys. Some I agree with, some I don't. Mostly with the committee suggestion, this isn't really making the choices of the nominees a community effort and it seems to be going back to the methods of the TMOscars, which we don't really want to be going back to. The awards where meant to be appealing because everyone in the community decides who gets to be recognized, and if we were to segregate the choice to a few people, it just wouldn't seem fair.


Just to follow up big T....

I posted a comment in the nomination thread a while back. The reply was that you guys had a really low amount of nominations. Hence my suggestion for a committee.

Also, a committee made up of our community members, to me, is a community effort. What else would you call it? lol :ban:

Also also, and excuse my ignorance here, do you guys accept all nominations given? If someone entered Baggage Boy part 8 for best picture, do you put it up or disregard it? Is there a limit to how many nominated movies can be accepted in each category? If so to either, that would mean a decision would have to be made of who's movie gets cut from the Ollies....like a committee process? Yes? No? Shut up Johnny?

My point is there are always going to be movies missed from the Ollies. However, with a committee, I think there is less chance than the open nomination process. Lesser of two evils I suppose. lol

The again, what the hell do I know. I think videos of dogs howling "I love you" is hilarious. So there ya go. :)

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#28 stvndysn

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:31 PM

a committee is a good suggestion, but how would you say who is in the committee..will it be voted by the community/do you put yourself up for the committtee..how would it be made fair for all.

also what would the committee do..does it decide what films are allowed/rejected...

i thnk to promote that single idea it needs to be expanded into rules of the committee.

#29 Mefune Akira

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:10 PM

a committee is a good suggestion, but how would you say who is in the committee..will it be voted by the community/do you put yourself up for the committtee..how would it be made fair for all.

also what would the committee do..does it decide what films are allowed/rejected...

i thnk to promote that single idea it needs to be expanded into rules of the committee.


Off the top of my unstable mind, I would say there is no absolute fair way. Someone will always get missed or not make the nomination cut. The point is the current method showed low participation this year and a nomination committee of TMU volunteers may improve that next year. I mean the same people who cast their nominations this year, could very well be on the committee next year, so the participation is still there. How many nomination entries were entered this year? If the count was pretty low, say 10, than whats the difference with a nomination committee of 10 next year? Just saying. :)

I would have liked to have seen a few other movies nominated this year, but due to life, I missed the process. I think others missed it for that reason as well. That, mixed with the tedious task of trying to recall all the movies over the past year, for so many categories, may have played a large part in the lack of participation. I think a volunteered committee would ensure, at least, that every category would be filled and thought out to some degree.

Either way, Steven is a dork! Go GIANTS!!

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#30 macwemyss

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:28 PM

Well... I'm just not a fan of the judging panel idea at all. In my opinion if you don't want to participate in the nomination, don't.

I don't get why it has to be made compulsory that only this select group is allowed to nominate. Does that mean their opinion means more than others'? If someone nominates the Baggage Boy, who's to say they're wrong to do so? What gives anyone the right to discount that vote, or class it as inferior in any way?

And who is going to be on the panel? What poor souls would you have going through every movie this year? Are the people who are endorsing this idea volunteering themselves to do it? Or are they just trying to shift the "work" (and I use that term extremely loosely...) onto someone else? Judging by the reasons people are giving for favouring this idea... I'd say the latter. It's easy to say, "oh, have someone do that" and it's another thing to put yourself forward for it.

And as has been said, who determines who deserves to be on the panel? Why would their opinion matter above anyone else's? The obvious and fair solution would be to have the community nominate candidates... and I'm sure you can see where the irony lies there.....

I don't think a panel type idea could ever work because it is so subjective. It's all based on the opinion of the members of the panel and in theory they could nominate a film that every single other member of the community HATED, yet nobody else could do anything about that because their opinion no longer mattered.

Nope, it makes much more sense to me to keep things as they are for the nomination stage. If you don't want to nominate, nobody's forcing you... I just don't think it's fair to take away others' right to nominate, that's all.
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#31 Mefune Akira

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:05 PM

Well I for one don't recall implying anyone should have to go through every movie made in the past year....the same way I'm sure you aren't implying to those who fill out nomination sheets must watch them all either.

To comment further, I would need to know the answer to my previous questions.

Is every nomination received accepted and used?

Does each category allow unlimited nominations?

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#32 macwemyss

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:22 PM

To have a devoted volunteer group who are eager to go through all the movies released, should be the way to go, like the Oscars.


Umm... there maybe? :P

If that's not what you were suggesting then I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. It's just you did say "all the movies released" so I assumed you did mean "all" of them, lol :D

Of course I'm not suggesting that people watch every movie released over the whole year. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That's why I felt it was wrong to expect a panel of nominators to simply appear out of thin air, as I imagine it would be pretty hard to find people willing to do that. Especially since on the evidence of this thread people seem to be finding it hard even to watch all of the nominated films, never mind narrowing down the far, far greater selection of worthy films beforehand.

Of course I can't speak for Tom or Killian but I cannot for the life of me imagine why anybody's nominations wouldn't be accepted unless a) they weren't a TMU member (in which case they couldn't fill in a nomination form anyway), B) they nominated films that weren't eligible or c) their submission could not be understood, in which case I imagine they would be asked to clarify/change their selections by Tom or Killian.

What you seem to be implying though is that some nominations perhaps shouldn't be taken seriously? Why is that? Everyone has different opinions and I for one would be extremely pissed off if I discovered my nominations had been discounted because the organisers didn't take them seriously...

Ah well, I'm gonna take a break from this thread lol, getting kinda heated in here :D
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#33 DL Watson

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:22 PM

Well... I'm just not a fan of the judging panel idea at all. In my opinion if you don't want to participate in the nomination, don't.


While I don't like the idea of committee, I'm not entirely closed minded about it.

The only way I see a committee working is if its used like this:

The year ends, the committee is chosen by randomly choosing 8 (I say 8 because TMU was founded 2008) top TMU viewers/commenters.

The 8 do not interact with each other and don't know who the other committee members are.

Each one chooses who they think should be nominated for Ollies - not voting for themselves, but can nominate a film by another committee member because he or she will not know who the other committee members are.

Once the nominations are in from each committee member, their selections are averaged out.

Killian announces the committees suggested nomination list.

Here is the catch. There only the suggested nominations and not the official nominees.

People will still have opportunity to nominate their selections. They can agree with the committee's decision and vote with their suggestions, or they can overwrite and committees suggestion and vote for their own selection.

When the nomination period ends, the nominees are counted for and then the final voting stage begins.

This way if people decided to not vote, then the committee's suggested nomination will take the place as an official nominee.

Might sound complicated, but could deter the frustration of folks not participating during the very important process of nominating films.

Just a thought/suggestion. :)
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#34 Mefune Akira

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:34 PM

Umm... there maybe? :P

If that's not what you were suggesting then I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. It's just you did say "all the movies released" so I assumed you did mean "all" of them, lol :D

Of course I'm not suggesting that people watch every movie released over the whole year. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That's why I felt it was wrong to expect a panel of nominators to simply appear out of thin air, as I imagine it would be pretty hard to find people willing to do that. Especially since on the evidence of this thread people seem to be finding it hard even to watch all of the nominated films, never mind narrowing down the far, far greater selection of worthy films beforehand.

Of course I can't speak for Tom or Killian but I cannot for the life of me imagine why anybody's nominations wouldn't be accepted unless a) they weren't a TMU member (in which case they couldn't fill in a nomination form anyway), B) they nominated films that weren't eligible or c) their submission could not be understood, in which case I imagine they would be asked to clarify/change their selections by Tom or Killian.

What you seem to be implying though is that some nominations perhaps shouldn't be taken seriously? Why is that? Everyone has different opinions and I for one would be extremely pissed off if I discovered my nominations had been discounted because the organisers didn't take them seriously...

Ah well, I'm gonna take a break from this thread lol, getting kinda heated in here :D


Doh! lol Luckily I said "recall" like a proper idiot. What I mean is all the movies the committee would come up with.

No. Just the opposite. The reason why Im asking if ALL nominations are used and/or is each category allotted unlimited nominations is to find out if any decisions are made by those running the Ollies. As in, If there is only 5 slots allotted for best picture and 9 movies are nominated, who chooses which 5 are used.

That was my reasoning for the questions.

Edit: My inquire has been answered. I now point to the corner of the room, shout "Moose!" and run from this thread!

Edited by Mefune Akira, 01 November 2010 - 11:58 PM.

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#35 macwemyss

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:43 PM

Ok, I know I said I was going to leave this alone but just read what you said D.L and I think that could work. It's actually very similar to the idea I was going to suggest to Chris and Smokstir.

My idea was for Chris and Smokstir to provide me with a list of films each week that they thought were truly outstanding and worthy of Ollie nominations, then over the course of the year I would compile a list or channel which featured all these movies, making it far easier for the voters to nominate their favourites when it came to Ollie time again.

Sure, it would be biased because it would be based on Chris and Smokstir's opinions but if people don't want to look for nominees themselves then there should be no reason to complain.

So yeah, that's a similar kind of idea and one I think could work. The only flaw I can see is that the panel of select nominators still seem to have the very difficult task of looking back over the year's movies and without even a very general outline of what was good, it would be very time-consuming for them to think of potential nominees, and easy for people to be overlooked or forgotten, which has been one of the main criticisms this year.

I think if there was a group of nominators selected now and they kept a record of their favourite films over the course of the year, then it could work well in conjunction with a community vote. The only issue would probably be in finding enough people willing to put in the effort to do that sort of thing for such an extended period of time.

If we decided to do this sort of thing I for one would be willing to help out in any way I could.
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#36 Killian

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:00 AM

I'd just like to chip in at this point and say "bravo!"; some nice, considered feedback coming through here and there are some ideas germinating that definately deserve further discussion, along with some definate "food for thought".

Naturally, not everyone is gonna agree on everything, but it's good to see some discourse thrashing out some of the more (dare I say) "controversial" areas that even we haven't necessarily been happy with (for various reasons).

Everyone has a say on the Ollies, provided they have something constructive to contribute, of course ;)

The plan is; leave this thread open til the end of the year, then compile all the suggestions and let's see what everyone thinks is the best way to go forward next year.

So, keep them ideas coming, folks; we're on a roll here! :punk:

Edited by Killian, 02 November 2010 - 01:19 AM.
Missed a line out; d'oh!


#37 BudBundysMullet

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:59 AM

I highly doubt people here watched all or a majority of the movies that were uploaded within the year,
considering the low amount of views and comments as of late, so how can one decide what was the best?

Here's my suggestion :
(drum roll please!...)

Open another "For Your Consideration" thread
People fill out the forms for their own movies for "Consideration".
Set deadline for dates and when the nominations close, etc.
Separate the movies into their categories
People vote based upon those selections.
Votes get narrowed down to three to five finalists in each category.
People vote once again to decide a clear winner.


Categories I think we can do without:

MOST OUTSTANDING SCREENWRITER
There's already a best screenplay category.

BEST MACHINIMATOGRAPHY IN A MOVIE OR SERIES
Don't know what Machinimatography is?

BEST SHORT FORM (<15 MINS), LONG FORM FILM OR EPISODE (>15 MINS)
We already have best picture, length of film shouldn't matter.

BEST "THE MOVIES", "MOVIESTORM", "ICLONE" FILM OR SERIES
Let's leave it to best picture, regardless of what platform one uses.

BEST OTHER MACHINIMA FILM OR SERIES
Is there another machinima I'm not aware of?

BEST SOUND DESIGN IN A MOVIE OR SERIES
There's already a sound editing category.

BEST PR CAMPAIGN FOR A FILM OR SERIES
No one reads the forums enough to make a valid judgement.

MOST ENTERTAINING GUEST ON A TMOA RADIO SHOW
Has nothing to do with moviemaking in general.
Not everybody listens to the shows.


You wanna tell someone how much you liked their movie?
Watch their movie and leave a comment.

That's my two and a half cents!
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#38 macwemyss

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 04:02 AM

Well said Bud, I agree with pretty much all of that. Only thing is I would keep these two:

BEST MACHINIMATOGRAPHY IN A MOVIE OR SERIES
Don't know what Machinimatography is?

BEST SHORT FORM (<15 MINS), LONG FORM FILM OR EPISODE (>15 MINS)
We already have best picture, length of film shouldn't matter.


I think there should be changes to the wording, etc though to make them less confusing. For example it would make sense to rename "machinimatography" as either "Best Camerawork" or "Best Visual Design" like Biz said earlier (that's the one I'm leaning towards to be honest). I don't think it needs scrapped, just clarified so people know what it actually is.

I also want to go back to my previous point about short form movies not being on a level playing field but would suggest a compromise where we do scrap "Best Long Form" but keep "Best Short Form" and reduce the upper time limit to somewhere between 8-10 mins. That way there's a clearer distinction as to what counts as a "short" film, and there's still an opportunity for short films to win awards. Like I said, maybe it's just me but when faced with a choice between a 3 minute movie and a 25 minute movie, I would always favour the longer one for "Best Picture". Perhaps I'm wrong to think that way but there we are :P

Thanks for the suggestions Bud, I think they make a lot of sense :)
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#39 BiggsTrek

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:19 AM

Without reading every comment posted so far (sorry, I'm very limited on time right now), I just wanted to say that the sheer number of categories was too much. Should be halved... or more.

A side benefit of fewer categories would be that the presentation show could be slowed down a bit, giving Ken more time to bring in the winners immediately after they win, rather than an hour later.

I'd also like to see the "Musical" category renamed "Music Video", mainly because when I think "Musical", I think "Seven Brides For Seven Brothers"... and that's not a good thing. :)

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#40 thebiz

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:22 PM

I just wanted to say that the sheer number of categories was too much. Should be halved... or more.


100x Yes. Then the nomination, voting and presenting process all become much easier, more fun and more focused (oh..I already said this a while back). Prune liberally. The other idea that I love is a nominate button (similar to a favorites button) so we can generate a list of nominees over the course of the year instead of at the end of the year. Make it so number one. Did I just go geek?

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